Exploring Crop Circles and UFO Phenomena: An Interview with Karen Alexander

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One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you are drowning in software instead of growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. So you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. Hi, this is Grant Cameron, and you're listening to That UFO Podcast. Hi, everyone, and welcome back to That UFO Podcast. My guest today is a returning guest and a researcher with over 30 years of experience in the UFO world with an expertise on the crop circle phenomenon. Love to welcome back Karen Alexander. Karen, how are you? I'm good. Thank you for having me. I hope you're okay, too. I'm not bad. And it surprised me just mentioning before we hit record that it was two years ago, I think, the last time you were on. Yeah, wow. I don't know what happened. I didn't get you back on last year. Again, you're one of those folks we message now and again, don't we? And I think it just never happened. And you get busy because, as we're going to talk about, crop circle this time of year, especially over the summer. It's a busy time. It's an exciting time. A lot going on. And that's what we're going to get into. And I also mentioned to you, huge response from the listeners. Karen, when I said I was going to have you on, talking about crop circles, a lot of listener questions to get through. And I'm going to devote most of the time today to that. But I always have to ask, to start off, Karen, give us a little bit of your own background. You know, who are you? What do you do? And how have you got to the point you've been so well entrenched in the UFO topic for so long? Yep. So I'm Karen Alexander. I've been involved in the crop circle subject for over 30 years now, since I was in my early 20s. And also adjacent to that, the UFO subject as well, which I have a really keen interest in. My background is in counseling and psychotherapy. Although I don't practice anymore. I'm partially retired and I now run the Temporary Temples crop circle website with my other half, Steve, who's a photographer. And we've been on there. There is a, you know, a record of 30 years of crop circles that we've flown over and visited and so on. So, yep, in a nutshell, that's it. It's a great website. And the link is, of course, in the description, folks. And I would recommend you go and check that one out. But there are always folks new to the subject, Karen, getting involved, folks who are lapsed, ufologists or whatever you want to call them. Really simple question, but I think an important one to start off with. You know, what is a crop circle? Yeah, it is a good question. Basically, a crop circle is a shape or design that usually occurs in a field of crop. The crop isn't mown or cut in any way. Usually it's flattened and usually in a swirl, if the pattern allows, usually in a circular swirl. Of course, crop circles can be a lot more complex than just a circle. We've had many, many different shapes over the years. And sometimes the interiors, the crop can be woven or knotted or all kinds of different things go on at ground level. So crop circle, it's a little bit of a misnomer these days because, of course, when, you know, the phrase was first thought of, crop circles were just that. They were sort of circles or groups of circles in crop fields. And of course, they appear in many, many different crops. So wheat and barley are the main ones, particularly in the UK. But it kind of depends on where you're looking at them. So in the US where they've had crop circles, it's often been in soya because that's kind of one of their main crops grown in the US. So, yeah, and even in the UK, they're in rapeseed or canola. We've had them in linseed, in borage, in beans, all kinds of different crops. They're much rarer. It's usually wheat or barley, but they do occur in other crops as well. I'm just going to bring up an image here. Again, for those on YouTube, I'm trying to put some more of this stuff in here. But for those on the audio platforms, it's the image of, you know, the wheat. And this is something that always interested me. And I hope this image represents it, Karen, because when I got into the UFO topic early on and looking up crop circles, they're one of those things that can be easily debunked in terms of, oh, that looks manmade for a variety of reasons. And even very intricate crop circles, I think you'll agree here, can be made by folks with relatively basic tools. However, there are some telltale signs that I've always found really interesting. And it tends to be with the angle of the wheat, how it's bent and how it's not broken. And also, I've heard that these middle bits of the stock, and you can correct me on what they're called, there's almost like a little pop and it comes out. And that's meant to be due to radiation, high temperatures, which would be painstaking and nigh on impossible to do for someone to walk around and pop these all out. But can you talk around that element of it and what makes a genuine crop circle stand out? So the picture that you're showing on the screen at the moment shows three different sets of stems. So we've got the normal, which is the control sample. Then we've got one that shows bent nodes. And the nodes are those little fleshy parts of the stem of the plant, basically where the water and moisture is stored. And these can become deformed in some crop circles. So the work was done, the main work on this was done by an American biophysicist called William Levengood. And in fact, this morning, just this morning, I was listening to a lecture given by one of his lab assistants called Penny Kelly, which you can look up on YouTube, where she actually talked about some of the work that she assisted Levengood with. So that's a good place to start if you're interested in this kind of stuff. So there's bent nodes. And then finally, you've got a third set there, which are blown nodes. And this is where, as you say, it's like those nodal points sort of pop from the inside out. And it was Levengood's opinion at the end of his work that this kind of effect was caused by some kind of microwave energy or radiation and that the moisture in the plant was heated up for a fraction of a second, but it was enough to cause these effects and essentially to soften the plants for them to lie down. And you very often see with the bent nodes that they'll bend in the direction of the swirl of the crop. Sometimes some of the effects that you see in crop circles could be put down to phototropism, where when a plant lies down, obviously it wants to go back towards the light. And so you can see effects where the crop starts to stand back up and those nodal points will then be in the direction of trying to stand the plant again. But I've seen crop circles in the past, particularly those in very immature crops, say in very young barley when it's still very green, where if nobody walks inside them, the crops will actually grow back and it'll be virtually impossible to tell that there was ever anything there. So that's one of the effects. There are many of those to do with the growth speeds of the plants and also the yield of the seeds as well. And there was, I think, a really good book, again, for people interested by, I think, John Burke, who looked at the yields of seeds, not just from crop circles, but also around ancient sites in the UK as well, which showed that for some reason the seed heads were bigger, that there was a greater yield in seeds from crop circles and from ancient sites. For people looking for loads more detail on the background of this kind of stuff, I'd suggest checking out our first interview as Karen, so we're not repeating too much of the same thing. But for you, what makes a genuine crop circle when you get to the area, whether it's via helicopter, because obviously you're looking from above at the pattern, the intricacy, the size, what for you really makes it stand out? Well, it's, as you can imagine, it's a whole mix of things. So, I mean, one thing that, you know, I would definitely say is that there isn't a 100% litmus test for a crop circle, because obviously the kind of research that was done with Leavengood is intent. It's labour intensive. It costs a lot of money to do. It's no longer being done. So there's all kinds of things. How it appears on the ground is one thing. I work very closely with another UK researcher called Dan Vidler, who spent years actually going in and looking at the crops at ground level and photographing and recording all the different things that he sees. So Dan would be one person I'd want to speak to. Other things, just, I don't know, it's very hard to kind of pin it down, but I would look at things like the geometry and design. I'd look at, is this something we've seen before or is this something else or is this something that we've never seen before and feels out of place? So lots and lots of different things, really. And the other thing is I try never to reach a consensus in a hurry. So whenever there's a season happening, I kind of just let it all unfold. I, you know, get as involved as I can do. I speak to a lot of people that are also doing their work as well. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you are drowning in software instead of growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. So you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. You know, at some point I might say, yep, I think this is the real deal, you know. But it's certainly not something that I would do in a hurry. And as you say, it's, you know, there are some tricksy people out there. And, you know, and so you, I just find that I take my time with it. And also I'm prepared for the fact that I might be wrong at any point. Wash your mouth out, Karen. No one's wrong on this subject, as you know. Patience is very rare in a UFO topic. And I think many of us are guilty of snap judgments and putting things out or jumping to conclusions. And I try my very best to not do that too often because you very often end up with egg in your face or a big crop of wheat springing back and smacking you in the face in your case. So you mentioned crop circle season. And again, this might be a really obvious question, but crop circle seasons, are they different throughout the world given time of year when crops grow? Talk about the actual season of a crop circle. And where are we in the UK just now? Yeah, so that's, it's exactly right, as you said. So the crop circle season is essentially takes place during the crop growing season, because obviously when there's not anything in the field, there's nothing for whatever does this, that it doesn't have a canvas. Although I have seen rings in soil, mysterious rings in soil going back a few years. But so, yeah, so in the UK that usually starts, well, around about April time. Much of it is weather dependent. Have we had a sunny, dry winter or a cold, wet winter? And we'll go right the way through until the crops are harvested, which I think this year will probably be quite early. We're not far off it now. It's been a very long, hot, dry summer here. So I think they will see that the season is a little bit shorter than, I mean, I've known crop circles to go through to September some years. Some years and, and then to be over by the end of July. So it really does sort of depend on the weather and, and, and the crops and so on. But that's the growing season. And it will be the exactly the same wherever you are in the world. It'll be during the crop growing season itself. And obviously the, the crops themselves, whatever they are, have to be sort of tall enough to hold a crop circle. It's no good a circle happening, you know, when the wheat is three inches high. It's just not going to happen. So it's usually when they're getting to be fully grown. So let's talk about what you've been doing this season then. How far into the crop growing season are we in the UK? And what's it been like so far in terms of actual circles? So circle numbers are up this year compared to the last couple of years where, where they've been, the numbers have been quite low. And it started, I think around, yeah, it started in April this year. We had just a very simple ringed circle in near Wimborne in Dorset at sort of mid-April time. And then nothing until mid-May time when there was a circle that probably lots of people have seen on the internet, which was a ringed circle. And it had that lovely sort of Celtic knot design in the middle of it. And that, in fact, that crop circle is still there, I think. The farmer has left it in the field for people to be able to go and visit, which is really, really wonderful. But I would imagine it's not far off being harvested now. So right now in the UK, we're getting towards the end of the growing season. And we're, we're pretty much into the harvest season now. So anytime, that's it, that's the one. And yeah, so anytime now, really, from now on, the farmers are going to start to be bringing the wheat in. There'll be maybe some corn around, maybe through until the end of August, something like that. But although we have had circles in corn in the UK before, they are actually quite rare. So I think we're getting towards the end of it now. So I've put the Windborn crop circle on the screen from April. As a layman, Karen, for me, I would say that looks pretty basic. Yep. If you're asking me about in terms of hoaxing, all that kind of stuff. If you looked at me and said, could someone do that? I would say, yeah, that could be man-made. Is there anything to this one that made you think otherwise or? Not particularly. I mean, you, I mean, it's important when we look at this thing that just because we might imagine that people could do it, that the answer is that they did do it. I know that there's a lot of that kind of thinking around and I, and it's not always a good thing. But very often at the beginning of a season, we start with simple designs and then as we go through the season, they'll get more complex. So we get the most complex usually right at the end of the season. So this would be pretty typical of the crop circle season in the UK, that we would start with a simple circle or a ringed circle. And then we would sort of build from there, if you like. So the circle that happened straight after this one, again, was another ringed circle, but the circle in the centre was larger and also it had that nice complicated design in the middle of it. So it does tend to go like that. There is a pattern to it and that pattern usually begins with something quite simple at the beginning of the season. Quite a few listeners wanted me to bring in and a good place to do it, I think, here. A crop circle found in Bavaria, Germany, on the 20th of July. So as we record this about 10 days ago, and just before I bring it in, this for me, the intricacy straight away strikes me. And if I go from the one I've just shown for a reason, which could be man-made, could be something else, then you see something like this. Which, Karen, you'll be better and more eloquent than I am at describing. Can you just talk through what we're looking at on the screen there? So, yes, this crop circle was reported, as you say, about 10 days, two weeks ago in Germany. And looking at this, it's quite a large one, somewhere between 200 and 300 feet in diameter, I would imagine. Whereas the small circle at Wimborne that we've just looked at would probably be less than 100 feet in diameter. And as you can see, this one is, you know, an incredible pattern. It's incredibly precise and regular. As a design, it's not kind of new. It brings in elements of designs that we've seen before in the UK, particularly the centre there, the sort of the sphere with the points. There was a crop circle that had a very similar design to it in Hampshire a few years ago. And then we've got this lovely sort of almost Greek kind of scroll work around the outside, which, again, we've seen in a few crop circles in the UK in past years. But, yeah, this is it's a really great design. Unfortunately, the farmers now cut this field, but that's because it was cutting the field time in Germany. They're a little bit ahead of the UK because, obviously, they're a bit further south than we are. And it didn't last very long. But fortunately, we've got a record of it, which is great. Do you know, I don't know if yourself you managed to get there, but any colleagues or researchers managed to go and do any kind of experiments on this kind of thing? Because, again, for me, I'll put this design as part of the thumbnail for the podcast, I think. This one's pretty spectacular and obviously very recent. Yeah. Not the time aware of. As I say, it didn't last very long. I think once the farmer knew that it was there, he didn't want a lot of people in his field. It is that time of year where they would be harvesting anyway. So I think probably he just decided, right, well, we'll do this field next. I mean, farmers, you know, they have to be, you know, wary, particularly in the heat of the summer that we've had all over Europe. People go in there, they smoke, they light a match. There can be a, you know, a fire before you know it. So it's very often a safety thing. Sometimes in the UK, when we're flying over the fields, we'll see that the farmers will take the tractor in and they'll cut all the way around the perimeter of the field. And that's, they do that because it's a fire break. So they're trying to, you know, protect the crops that they've got because, you know, obviously fire is a huge risk this time of year. So, so, so yeah, unfortunately it didn't last long enough. Once the photographer had got the pictures up on the internet, you know, somebody would have alerted the farmer and he decided the best thing to do would be to take it out. Yeah. It's sad, you know. Yeah, it's sad that the farmers won't be a fan, will they, of the damage to the crops and the yield and they lose money on this, don't they? Yeah, they do. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, and it's the thing that's not, you know, brought up too often. You know, I mean, particularly when we're talking about, you know, man-made circles, you know, I mean, it causes hurt and upset, you know, farmers, you know, are very attached very often to, to the, to the land that they farm, particularly if they're an owner farmer and have farmed that, that land for years. It's, you know, I guess it's a bit like somebody coming in and trampling your garden. I don't know, but, you know, it, it, you know, it is upsetting for them. I mean, you know, again, going back to the, the farmer at, at a place called Sutton Vaney in Wiltshire this year who kept the, the circle in his field all year. He was able to turn a negative into a positive and, you know, people were able to donate money to a GoFundMe, I think it was, in return for a visit, which helped him to, you know, get some of his money back. But obviously he would have had to keep an eye on it and that would have been in, in addition to his other duties as a farmer. So, you know, it would have cost him time as well. But I'm always happy when farmers can find a way to turn a negative into a positive. I think it, you know, I think it's a good thing in life anyway, but I, I, I just think sometimes trying to keep people out of the field when they know that there's something there is difficult and you can sort of give yourself a heart attack driving up and down. The road trying to tell people to leave. But it, you know, it, it, when they can make a, you know, something good out of it, it's, it's a good thing. So I'm going to get to the guide in just a moment you've got on the website around visiting crop circles, because I think that's important because again, you're on someone's land and not necessarily always meant to be there. And it's important to kind of raise an aware, the awareness around that. However, the why of crop circles, where, where is Karen Alexander's thinking right now in 2025, you know, all those decades of experience and research. And this will be something we talked about a couple of years ago, but I wonder where are you at in terms of what crop circles are for? Or what is there, what is the reason? Is there one or is it many? I think there are many reasons. I tend to look at the way that crop circles affect people and then look for some reasoning in that. And, and I, and I, and I, I think one of the biggest things is that they shock people out of their complacency, you know, on a very, very basic level here is something that shouldn't be there and yet is, and it appears in a, in a mysterious way. And, you know, it, I mean, I've had thousands of conversations with people over the years in circles or around the circles, you know, where people have talked about how much just seeing one sort of opened their mind and got them thinking about, you know, whether it's non-human intelligences or perhaps the, the intelligence of the planet or what, you know, just all kinds of things, you know, in the, in the trying to find the reason or origin for something, you know, it does open you up to, you know, I mean, just, it's just the same as seeing a UFO, you know, that, that it gets you thinking about how wide, is there a wider and deeper reality to the world in, in which we live? And I think the answer to that is yes. I think crop circles and UFOs are part of that. And, and I, so I think on a very, very basic level that they do wake people up. And then, then there are many, many different threads that you can pull on that. You know, many people develop a deeper association with nature through this. I mean, it's not very often, is it, that you, I mean, sitting in a crop circle is an amazing thing because very often you're sat in the middle of nowhere. You've got nature all around you. Very often you can't even see or hear the traffic. And, you know, it's, again, it's sort of that reconnection somehow with the world around us and a deeper connection as well. All things that we desperately need in our times, I think. And I, and I do think it evolves people, you know, psychologically and even spiritually, if I'm allowed to say such a thing, that it does, you know, open people up to, to a whole new view of reality, if you like. So I think that's what, they're very basic terms. I think that's definitely what, what they do and therefore must be part of why they're here. It's not unfair. And I wonder, is there anything to that, that distance and location away from civilization, you know, miles and miles from your nearest city tend to be, that, that there must have deliberateness to that and that it is far from the prying eye. Whereas if it was something that a non-human intelligence wanted to be seen more readily or frequently or on a bigger scale, you would go to Central Park in New York and you would make a massive design in the grass. And these things seem to be, they're extravagant, they, they're extraordinary to look at. They're in massive scale quite often, very intricate, but they're quite far away. And I imagine there are crop circles that appear that we don't even hear of. Yes, I would imagine that too. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, some crop circles are, you know, are visible, you know, they, they could be in a field next to, to a road. They're not all right, you know, away from civilization, but I mean, obviously they're in the countryside. Very often they're, you know, in small villages or, or whatever. So I think there's a little bit of, of both in it. And I, and I, and of course with human society where it is at the moment, these things get popped up on the internet and they're there for everybody to see them. So, you know, they're not. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you're drowning in software instead of growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. So you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. The vast majority of them, I would expect, don't stay a secret. They are around for people to look at. And if people were looking... Oh, it's good. No, carry on. Well, I was going to say, I mean, you know, you listen to the accounts of a lot of UAP experiences, and they'll tell you about this idea of, you know, that we're getting too tech-knowledged, that, you know, that we don't care enough for our environment, and those kinds of messages. And I would say that some of that is echoed in the crop circle subject as well. You know, that there's this idea of a reconnection to nature, and the fact that this happens in nature, as you say, rather than, you know, organizing bricks or whatever. And it's the same question with the UAP thing. I mean, people always say, oh, why don't they land on the White House lawn? And it's, you know, it's the eternal question, isn't it, of, you know, do they want to be seen, or are they deliberately hidden? And I think there's exactly the same kind of tension in the crop circle subject. For anyone who maybe wants to go and visit a crop circle, what are some of the do's and don'ts? And again, I'll refer folks to the Guide to Visiting Crop Circles, which is on the TemporaryTemples.co.uk website. But Karen, if you want to kind of go over some of that, the basics for folks. Yeah, I mean, the first thing is really to not go in a field unless you've got permission to be there. That's the first thing. If you, if, I mean, you can always check the crop circle websites. Certainly we would give information if the farmer was allowing visitors and how, and, and all the details around that. But otherwise you really do need permission to be there because otherwise it's trespass. And, and it's not going to be a good start if you're caught somewhere, you're not supposed to be. The second thing is, you know, to leave the crop circle as you found it. Never, ever walk through or flatten any crops or plants. I mean, just don't do it. It's, it's a real no, no. If you, if you're walking to enter a crop circle, use the tractor lines. I mean, you know, that we have this wonderful convenience in the UK because we spray from the ground rather from the air. So we, you know, we, we have the convenience of a tractor line. Don't make walk long lines into a crop circle. It's, it's just not good. Don't leave anything in there that, that shouldn't be there. You know, I mean, I've seen people try to bury crystals and things in, in crop circles. And it's a, you know, it's a nice, it's a nice thought, but not so good for the farmer if he's got, you know, mechanical equipment and things like that. And, you know, don't put your, don't touch anything and then put your, use your hands to touch your mouth or your eyes because very often the crops are sprayed. What they're sprayed with isn't very good for, for human beings at that point. So be very careful with that. Always wash your hands afterwards. The same, be really careful with pets. So, you know, some people like to take their dogs with them if they're walking a dog, you know, again, just be careful because you just don't know what, what's around and how it's going to affect pets. So be careful with that as well. Yeah, never, it's the, and then the, just the simple things. If you open a gate, close it behind you. Don't park your car where it's going to be a nuisance to farm vehicles, all those kinds of, of things. Take a bottle of water with you. You know, it gets hot and there's no shade in the summer. Just, just sensible, you know, common sense things just to think about. And, and the guide that we wrote with my longtime mentor, Michael Glickman, it's, it's free. It's on the website. You can print it off. It's just, just a few pointers, just things to think about. You know, again, it's common sense stuff, but always worth a read before you go. Absolutely. And let's dive into the listener questions. Karen, thanks to everyone who sent stuff over for Karen. And if I've not got to it, I apologize. But yeah, there was a lot sent over. A couple of similar questions to start off with. So I'll read both of them for you, Karen. So from Valis, he says, AI is very good at finding patterns. Has anyone fed images of the most important crop circles into AI and prompted for an analysis of code, meaning recurring symbols and mathematics? And similarly, Harvey said, you know, Karen, is anyone using AI to unlock information within the patterns of crop circles? I know researchers at MIT have developed a system that can automatically decipher lost languages. Is this an avenue you might go down? It probably would be a really interesting avenue to go down. It's probably not something I would do. I'm just not experienced enough with that kind of technology to do it. I know a friend of mine, Scott Onstott, who's really quite keen on this. So I think it probably will be something that's done. There's a really great website called cropcirclecentre.com, which is a database of crop circles that go right the way back and also include listings. from circles reported all over the world. And that would probably be a really good point for people that are interested in doing any kind of work like that with the crop circles. Because I think, you know, I think AI, it would be a really interesting analysis to do. I think particularly looking for patternings, because crop circles are patterns, you know, at their most basic. So I think, yeah, it would be a really interesting piece of work to do. It's just something I don't feel qualified to do myself. That's very fair. I've just looked up crop circle center there, and I've put the link in the description to folks. Great stuff. Go and check that one out. Thank you, Karen. Do you think AI, do you think it may be something for the newer generations coming through then? And I say that as someone who's 39, like, kids are good with this kind of stuff now. And they're learning things like coding and AI prompting or LLM prompting at a very young age now. And it's perhaps something that researchers who have been involved in this for a long time maybe don't see the value in themselves. Or it's a case of, do you know what? I've got my expertise. I've got what I can do. So let's let the new generations coming through get involved in this because this can be their way to further these studies. And I'm sure, Karen, if there's someone listening to this who is an expert with prompting on LLMs and that kind of stuff and chat GPT, get in touch with Karen. Her contact details are on the website and offer your services. Karen doesn't go around charging people to view and research crop circles. That's something she does on her own dime. So I don't think there'll be money there for you. But they're a great experience, a great wealth of knowledge. And it's something people ask me often. How can they get involved in the topic? You know, if you've got a real passion and thirst for the burgeoning and emerging AI scene, maybe that's a way to go. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, it is something, as I say, that I don't have a great expertise in and I am now an older person. But, yeah, I mean, I think it would be incredibly interesting to see what AI would make if there could be any connections that could be made on that level between, you know, many of the formations. So, yeah, absolutely. I'd be interested in anybody who would, you know, be interested in doing that. Question from Gnosis says, Andy, does Karen know of any reputable circle cases between 1945 and 85 that cannot be contributed or attributed to Doug and Dave, the hoaxers or modern circle makers that became famous from the 1990s onwards? The reason I ask is because my grandfather on my mother's side was a farmer in Cambridge up until the late 60s. And when crop circles became mainstream in the 90s, he claimed to have seen them during his farming years. However, these were just circles, nothing more complex. Yeah. Yeah, I've heard many, many similar stories. There's a wonderful book, actually. It's called The Secret History of Crop Circles. And it's by an author called Terry Wilson. And and that looks at historical. So going right the way back to look at basically historical sightings of circles pre the pre the modern age, which I would say was probably the late 1970s, early 1980s. So his book is really, really good and has some really interesting cases in it. You can still get copies of it. I think secondhand copies of it on the Internet. And and it's a really good read. So I could recommend Terry's book. Definitely. The Doug and Dave thing. Am I right that this may be one of those hoax circles? I'm just going to bring it in, Karen. Is that one you're familiar with? I've put on screen. Yep, it is. Yep. From from a few years ago now. Yeah. The Doug and Dave story is it's a really interesting. I think we talked a little bit about this last time that I was. I think we did. Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, they're no longer around. And and and the circles that they made for TV or whatever were a lot more simple than something like this. This is actually really interesting. I mean, if you I mean, one of the great ways of getting to know how easy or difficult something is, is to actually try and draw it yourself on paper. And the first thing that I would have difficulty with this is is drawing the octagram, which is the eight sided shape that goes around here without drawing a circle first. If I was to draw this on paper, I'd want to draw the octagon in a circle so that I could do the sorry, so that I could get the angles, the angles and the sectors, the correct degrees. So so that would be quite difficult to do for a starter. How how how do you do that accurately? And so a lot of these are are not as easy as as they look. And also, if I remember rightly, there's some golden section portioning going on in this particular circle, and it would also do something called squaring the circle, which is that where there is a circle or a square within hidden within the design that have a similar or equal perimeter or area. So very often, even though crop circles look, you know, quite simple, when you get them on the drawing board and you actually look at how they're put together geometrically, it's a lot more complex than it looks. So I actually really liked this particular crop circle, and I don't see any reason to put it in the black bin. Fair enough. I would look at that one compared to the Bavaria circle from before. And I think as intricate as this one looks, it looks rough. I mean, I couldn't begin, like you say, to even draw this on paper, let alone attempt to do that in a crop. But again, for me, I would look at that and say, yeah, it's intricate, but it looks off kilter. The proportions aren't right. And it's not as clean and polished as the Bavarian crop circle. So for me, yeah, it's actually not as rough as it looks. It really isn't. You know, I think when you see a direct overhead image of it, you'll see that it's pretty regular. But yeah, I mean, again, I would again want to speak to somebody who'd been inside it. I'd want to know, you know, what they've seen inside and so on. And again, you know, another recommendation for people is a great website called, I think it's called Crop Circles UK. And it's run by researcher Dan Biddler, who does all the ground research. And to go and take a look at some of the things that he's found inside circles and even circles where you wouldn't necessarily, you know, think that it was particularly complex, you know, geometrically or whatever, that he still finds these amazing things going on on the ground. And so, yeah, you know, with this, there's a little bit of a don't judge a book by its cover, because sometimes, you know, what might not be going on from the air for you is actually going on on the ground. And so, you know, yeah, don't judge a book by its cover too quickly. You were close. It was UK Crop Circles, not Crop Circles UK. There we go. I've just checked it for you. And again, that one will be in the description, folks. That's good stuff. For the love of God, Karen, no more recommendations before I start running out of space here. No, but it's some good stuff. And I'll put that in there too. So next question was back to Vallis. Vallis, let me know, I've pronounced that wrong in the past. V-A-L-I-S. I don't know if it's Valli or Vallis, sir. Have claims of residual microwaves, frequencies and humming sounds suit up to scrutiny over time, Karen? I think the problem with that is that whenever those sounds have been heard, that a lot of the time they've not been recorded, or those that have have been very, very fleeting. And so I think that there's only maybe a handful of recordings of it. Have they stood up to scrutiny? Well, it depends on the scrutiny that you're talking about, obviously. I mean, one of the most famous cases happened with Colin Andrews, one of the first crop circle researchers in the UK. He was doing an interview for the BBC, I think, in a crop circle, I think in Hampshire somewhere. And there was a cameraman, a sound guy, and they were studying. It was quite a simple circle, I think, one of the early ones. And they suddenly started to hear this sort of electronic sound. And I believe that whatever it was, it didn't happen for very long, but it completely ruined the equipment that the BBC team were using, I think, both the camera and the recording, the sound recording, I think, as well. And in fact, it's that parts of that recording, because it's only very brief, that are used in the C-SETI protocols. And, you know, so, again, it's kind of, they're very sort of disparate things. And I don't believe that, apart from some research at the early days, when most of those recordings happened, that there's been much work done on them. But they happened, absolutely they did. Yeah. A good follow-up question to that, Karen, is from Pixel Wolf. Given the theories about crop circles, particularly those suggesting they are messages or have an energetic signature, I'm curious about the how. Have you encountered any compelling evidence or hypotheses, even speculative ones, that explore the possibility of these formations being influenced or manifested through non-physical means, perhaps through some form of directed consciousness or psychokinetic energy? Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you are drowning in software instead of growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process, so you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. Yeah, so this is a very, very big part of the crop circle subject is the question of human consciousness and the phenomenon itself, and is it possible that the two are connected? Is it possible that one can influence the other and vice versa? And I think the answer to that is yes. I think that there are plenty of really good stories around from researchers, myself included, where we've looked at, is it possible for human consciousness to affect what goes on in the field? And this was a question that has been around from the very earliest days. And I remember in the very early 90s, when the Centre for Crop Circle Studies was still in operation, that one of the early papers written by the chairman at the time was about this very question. And it arose because of people's experiences with the circles. And one of the things that people began to notice straight away was that there was an element of synchronicity involved in the subject somehow. So, though, you know, people would say, oh, I'd be driving or cycling somewhere and I'd go past a field. I think, oh, that would be a great place for a crop circle, only for there to be one the next time they were there. Or for researchers to have crop circles show up near where they live. That's happened to me, but not just to me. It's happened to many other people as well. And then, of course, there's, you know, the more complex version of that where, you know, people have actually got together and looked at, is it possible if we meditate on a design? Would that happen? Do crop circles show up in your dreams? That sort of thing. I had a dream just before the crop circle season this year, and I dreamt about seeing a circle on the side of a hill. And it was like a long string of beads. And at one end was like a loop. And then at the other end was like a Celtic, the Celtic knot thing. And actually, when we flew over the Sutton-Vaney circle right at the beginning of the season, I think that my dream was linked to it. Although the pattern of the circle wasn't the same, it contained many of the same elements. Now, is that part of the phenomenon or is that part of just the way that human consciousness interacts with reality itself? And that there was something a little bit prophetic about it. I don't know the answer to that. But many people have these kind of, you know, connections and attachments which suggest, I mean, another really famous way of looking at this was, you know, that particularly, again, in the early days, you know, researchers would say, oh, we've been looking at the crop circles and we've decided that all real crop circles do this. And if they don't do this, then they're definitely a hoax, only for the next circle to happen to do the very thing that they said was a hoax. So, yeah, again, there is lots of evidence and stories that kind of show that this is the case. And, you know, myself, I've been involved in this. It's a long story, so I'm not going to bore you with it now. And I won't recommend another book, Andy, but there are a couple of books out there that tell these kinds of stories about that interaction with human consciousness and about how it may well be possible that the human mind can in some way influence or connect with whatever is involved with the crop circles. Recommend the book, by the way. I was almost joking before. Go for it. OK, I would do two. So the first one is my own, which is a very small book. It's called Charlie Knoll, an Archetypal Crop Circle Story. And it was it was published in small numbers, but I am about to put the PDF of it on the website. So keep an eye out for it on there and you would just be able to download that for free and read it. The other one is a book called Quest for Contact, which was written by the researcher Andy Thomas, who I know that you've had on the podcast as well. And that's that's another really great book about the work that he did. And I was also involved in that where we looked at the possibility of that. And in both those stories, crop circles appeared that were almost, you know, it was hard to deny that they had that the human beings had played some part in that. So, yeah, two good books to read there. Question from Toby. Toby says, hi, Karen, I hope you're well. Do you have any insight into why the number of formations has declined so significantly over the past five years or so seasons? Whilst I find us sad this is the case, I'm also fascinated by this aspect of the phenomenon as a phenomenon in itself. I would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks and best wishes, Toby from Guernsey. Oh, hi, Toby. Yeah, I mean, it is it's an interesting thing. I mean, crop circles have always been up and down numbers wise. I mean, I remember 1993 was a particularly slim year when it came to crop circle numbers. And then they they began to build again, sort of from the mid 90s on onwards. I think the the apex of, you know, speaking number wise was probably around 2009. And then sort of after maybe after 2012, they sort of began a decline. I think 23 and 24, again, were really lean years, not not many around. But this year, there's been an uptick again. So it's, you know, it is a I mean, there could be many, many different reasons for it, you know, perhaps even reasons that we've not even thought about. But it could also also mean that, you know, perhaps we are, you know, maybe coming to the end of it. You know, it's not an impossibility that that one day it may stop. So, you know, again, it's it's I don't have any particular, you know, thoughts on it. I mean, some people have talked about numbers matching sunspot activity and things like that, again, which is interesting or even related to the depth of the water table in the UK. So, yeah, there are lots and lots of different, different reasons, you know, but yes, they have been in decline apart from this year when there are a few more. Human Neutrino asked, what is the typical size of a crop circle? OK, so the average size of a crop circle is around about 200 feet. And, you know, and then you can get very small ones and you can get ones that are really large. So I think one of the largest ones was about a thousand feet across, which was the Milk Hill one from 2001. So, yeah, they do really vary. I've been in tiny ones, you know, which to me are just as interesting as the big ones. But, you know, yeah, about 200 is the average. And really good timing, Karen, to bring up Milk Hill. So on that, and I'm going to try and get the picture. I know it's a video, but we'll see. Shane says, Recently, a person named Citizen D was interviewed on the Grimerica podcast. Citizen D claims to have been a crop circle maker and knows of many other makers. He says that he knows exactly who created the Milk Hill orb video, the one that shows the balls of light making the circle, and that it's totally and absolutely fake. He didn't mention all the other videos of the same white orbs in the area that were filmed over a tractor flying off screen, seemingly at high speeds. Nor did he mention the orb that was flying around a helicopter, just the one above the field. So my questions are, can Karen confirm the Milk Hill video is indeed fake? What about the other videos of the similar orbs in the area? And does she know who Citizen D is? OK, so the first answer is, no, I don't know who Citizen D is. And I didn't hear the interview, unfortunately. Actually, the video that you're talking about is the Oliver's Castle video, not the Milk Hill video. The Milk Hill crop circle is something completely different. So this is the video that came out in 1996 of a crop circle that appeared below Oliver's Castle, which is sort of a natural ancient hill fort, sorry, not natural, but an ancient hill fort in Wiltshire. There's been lots of crop circles around there over the years. I remain agnostic about the video, I have to say, which gets me into a lot of trouble with a lot of my friends. But I am quite agnostic about that. I do know, I definitely know that balls of light are a thing in and around crop circles because I've seen them. And one of the videos that you mentioned there about one of them flying over the tractor was actually taken by my husband, Steve. And that video is completely authentic. And what was nice about it was that the tractor driver remembered seeing it. And he's in fact, his tractor cut out as the light went over as he was turning in his field and and was interviewed afterwards by researchers. So they're definite that there's no doubt about it. There is a link between whatever these balls of light are and crop circles. And they have some very interesting properties, one of which is that when I've seen videos of them, that the closer to the person that the light is, the smaller it seems. And the further away, the bigger it seems, which is completely counterintuitive. You would expect it to be the other other way around. I guess what makes the Oliver's Castle footage stand out was because it purports to show how a crop circle is made. And certainly I think it's how many researchers think that crop circles might be made. That's the Milk Hill circle. So the Oliver's Castle one was 1996 and was like a big snowflake. And so in one respect, it kind of shows what a lot of researchers thought about how crop circles were made. Is it genuine? I don't know. There's actually been some recent research done into it or some analysis, recent analysis, which I think you can look at. I'm sure you can look it up. And the recent analysis, I think that the opinion was that they thought that it was real. So, you know, it's very difficult, isn't it? And it's also difficult when, if this was a man-made fake video or whatever, that the person hasn't come forward to say, hey, yeah, it's definitely mine and I did it. That would help clear it up, wouldn't it? But yeah, so I remain agnostic about it. It's interesting, but I can't prove it one way or the other. No, that's fair. I think one, if folks are indeed anyway well-versed in the crop circle phenomenon, we'll know this picture. And it was from Nick. He asks, what does Karen think of the crabwood alien crop circle? Yeah, I mean, again, this one is, obviously it's a real mystery. I don't know. I actually went in this crop circle and I can tell you at ground level, it was completely incomprehensible. You had no idea what it was that you were stood in at all. So, you know, it was an incredible thing to behold. And in fact, I think when Steve actually flew over this circle, because I wasn't with him when he flew over this one, that he didn't, it wasn't until he was looking at the pictures after they'd been developed, because this was the time when we were still using film, that we suddenly realised what it was. So, yeah, I mean, again, you know, there are, you know, debunking theories about this one. Some say it was made to promote the movie signs. I don't know if that's the case or not. But certainly I don't think the farmer has said anything to that effect. So I don't know is the answer to that. But, yeah, I mean, and this one, this one was for me when I went inside it, all I can tell you is that it was completely buzzing, that, you know, the air felt crackly is the only way I can put it into words. And when I when I walked in it, it just felt like it, you know, that it was alive somehow. And I, you know, again, I just think it's one of those that is is very, very interesting. I mean, there have been other depictions of the, you know, the alien face and things in crop circle design, but they've been much more geometric rather than this, which is, you know, that the design is made from from, you know, standing and flattened lines. But I could certainly I couldn't couldn't think of how I would do this at ground level. But yeah, I don't know. Just for those on audio, it's like it's strange that it's not just one pattern. You've got separately, you've got a desk with lots of little dots and almost like it's a morse code going around or something akin to that. Yeah, that would be worked out. And then separately, as part of that, you have an almost passport photograph style of would you say it's more of a gray or mantis type looking being because of the eyes? I don't know. It could be. It could be either. Couldn't it? Yeah. Yeah, it could be either. Yeah. But it looks it looks like it's been made or the picture like if you had an old printer or like a Game Boy where you could print stuff off of your Game Boy screen and you would have that poor quality because of the time. But someone's done that in a crop in a huge scale. And like you say, just the the way to do that on a piece of paper would be artistically quite difficult, let alone do that sort of artwork in a crop. And you know what, maybe someone's listening to this, Karen, going, oh, that would be so easy. You would just have to do X, Y and Z. I would love to see it attempted because it's very intricate for me. It's it's ridiculous in what it is, because it's not a really fancy, you know, like the Bavaria or Milk Hill or any other crop circle you want to name. It's nothing as intricate like that, but it's a picture of an alien. And when I say passport photograph picture, folks, that's almost what it's like, you know, side on. And so, yeah, really strange, very intricate. And yeah, it is. And unlike any other crop circle that we've had since before or since. So it really does stand out as a as a thing on its own. You know, yeah, design wise, completely unique. Karen, what we'll do is we'll wrap up there because we're getting towards the other work now and you've been very generous with your time. I just want to give you the kind of final word. Do you want to let folks know kind of what the plans are for the rest of this crop circle season? What you're up to in terms of the work on your research and anything else you want to say? So, yeah, at the moment, I think we're sort of coming. We're winding down the season, but still maybe hoping for one or two more. Who knows? So we're kind of on standby for that. The next thing that I'm going to be doing is organising our annual conference, which we do online. And there will be details of that on the website in the event section as soon as I've sorted it out. Normally, it takes place throughout October. We do one or two speakers on a Saturday and Sunday throughout the whole month. And you can come and listen in to to the live or you can purchase the recordings afterwards. But that's a great way to hear what other researchers are doing and and also to to sort of make connections with people. So please keep an eye out for that. And then, oh, I guess the last thing is I should really plug our new yearbook. So we're kind of playing catch up with the yearbook since Covid. And so the next one that we're going we put one out every year. We've been doing it for over 25 years. And these are the they're essentially big picture. They're essentially picture books. They they have the sort of the best ones that we've been able to record that year. And there's a little bit of commentary about them. And the next one we're going to put out is our 2022 edition, which we're just finishing up now. It's going to be hitting the printers very, very soon. So if you're interested in keeping up with that, with the yearbooks, then then that's the next one that's going to be ready. But other than that, yeah, I hope to see some people at the conference. That would be nice. Some new people, especially. Awesome. Go and check out the website. The link is in the description, folks. And Karen's work. Check out our books if you're at all interested in the crop circle phenomenon. Thank you for all the questions. Karen, thank you again so much for your time. Been great speaking with you again. Oh, pleasure. Absolute pleasure. And thank you for the questions as well. That's really great. Thank you. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at Odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.